Sure is easy to come to the public trough to ask for money without saying who shoud provide the money. And just raising taxes isn't the answer [regardless of Gov. Cuomo's belief in paying at a higher rate if you earn more]. How about "If you want to retain/increase spending, you have to propose something else to be cut?"

Can someone maybe explain something to me? The budget calls for the elimination of 367 jobs, a 5% reduction in Parks and Recreation, $160 million reduction to the Health Department, $1.9 Million to contracts, $999,000 reduction to Cornell Extension and &750,000 to Artswestchester. With all these reductions, why is the Tax Levy staying the same? Am I being too simplistic in thinking that with all these reductions, we should see a reduction in the Tax Levy?

Thank you in advance for any enlightenment anyone can shed on this.

Bob, George, I was there last night, was # 150 on the speaking list (the union types and special interest pleaders showed up at 4:30PM in the afternoon to sign up!!) , and finally got to the podium shortly before 11:00PM, long after, I suspect, the Patch reporter left. The meeting room was filled with union types and special interest pleaders for everything from more spending for nature sanctuaries to more spending for a variety of social service organizations. I had the distinct pleasure of noting to the folks on the podium that we voters had just broken the Democratic super-majority, and replaced their chairman for the evening, Democrat Marty Rogowsky, with a tax and budget cutter, Republican David Gelfarb, our Rye Town Councilman and member of Team Carvin, the four-years-in-a-row double-digit tax cut leaders in the state. I can't give you the details on why the tax levy is or is not reduced, but I suspect it has to do with growing Medicaid payments and growing pension and health care costs. It's a monster effort that will require a Republican majority in Albany in both houses of the legislature and a Republican in the Governor's chair. We have all just begun the fight.

Jeff, it was easy to spot a "union type" at the hearing. They were wearing the same CSEA red shirts, waving placards, and hooting and hollering. Homeowners like myself whose property taxes are paying for this "we are entitled to our benefits and our perks and to hell with you taxpayers" were not represented early on - we couldn't get to the podium until the wee hours of the evening. Of course you can and will say that the property owning taxpayers, including senior citizens on fixed incomes, whose savings are being destroyed and whose lifestyle choices must now include scrimping on home heating or food or medicine to pay for the red shirts, should shut up and go home. That's the Ken Jenkins' message. I will say the only pleasure I got out of Tuesday evening was knowing that I was watching the lame-duck end of the Democrat super-majority, as my fellow homeowners have finally gotten the message and are showing up at the polls and voting in Republican tax cutters like our new District 6 legislator, David Gelfarb. And Jeff, watch out, because the property taxpayers' backs are to the walls - we can either pack up and leave the County and State, or stay and fight. We're fighting for our existence. If you call that arrogance, go ahead. But look in the mirror first - and..watch your spelling. You meant "there" and not "their." And "than" instead of "then." And "possess" instead of "posses." Your elementary school teachers would be appalled. Or maybe not.,

Union type? How about those who can leave work at 4:00 to sign up to speak at a public hearing to argue that they shouldn't have to contribute at dime towards their health care. That's one type. And those fighting for their jobs ought to look around at who pays their salaries: taxpayers who are fighting to stay within a budget, to keep their homes, to pay their own insurance, to pay their taxes. It's time for the entitled few (read that as public employees and lifetime social service beneficiaries) to get up & stop expecting everyone else to pay for them. Pay for your own child care. Pay what it costs to enter Playland. Enough.

Jeff, I speak for the untold numbers of Westchester County homeowners who are being wiped out by property taxes and cannot make it to these public union rallies. And we are not extreme right wing. We are smack dab in the center of American politics. I would suggest to you that the public unions with their constant demands on the property owning taxpayers are in the extreme. The private sector unions at least understand reality. We are the taxpayers who elected Rob Astorino to halt the public union/Democratic party led property tax explosion, and we are the taxpayers who destroyed the Democrat super-majority in the County Legislature. And we're working to create a Republican majority. And when that happens, believe me, the Democrats, for their very survival, will be listening to us. And when they do, and if the Republicans think they can ignore us, we'll switch. We are determined independents, and we are against ideologues of all stripes - and that, I guess, includes you.

Dick: I am glad that you have the authority to speak for UNTOLD numbers of Westchester County homeowners. I am sure they appreciate your passion. Unlike you I only speak for myself. I guess if you are against "ideologues" like myself, I will consider that to be a badge of honor. Good day. Jeff Meyer Tuckahoe

Jeff, I can say I speak for "UNTOLD numbers" with perfect equanimity because in my Town of Rye I went door to door on behalf of our successful Republican and tax cutting candidate for County Legislator, David Gelfarb, and our tax cutting and budget cutting Republican Town Supervisor, Joe Carvin, who was reelected with 62% of the vote in a Town with a more than 2-1 Democratic registration. I heard so many heartbreaking stories from those who could not afford the taxes, and whose lives were being destroyed by them, that I became an energized activist on their behalf. At the Town level, we actually collect the taxes for the County, so our Supervisor can only patiently explain that he and his team are helpless to stop the County Democratic/Public Union madness (although on their own they have reduced Town taxes by double digits FOUR YEARS IN A ROW). So yes, we all wear our badges of honor. I am proud to say the voters here are supporting mine.

Jeff, you are holding up as a public example Yonkers..of all places? With its corruption and government waste and utter political incompetence, by both parties? If there were an informed and organized citizenry in Yonkers, they'd have a Joe Carvin type running the place. By the way, the Village of Port Chester in the Town of Rye, which has many of the same social problems as Yonkers (and an 80% minority population in the school district) , voted for Mr. Carvin as well. If you are the model and representative citizen you say you are, how about moving to Yonkers and running for a City Office? Then again, what party label will you take on in Yonkers? (As you can tell, I read Phil Reisman in the JN, who loves the place but can't stand the politics there. And you want to wish Yonkers style government on the County??)

Dick: Sorry to hurt your feelings. I never recall saying that I was "model" or "representative" citizen. I certainly made no reference to the political establishment in Yonkers. Only the people I am with. I am just a guy concerned about his neck of the woods. The family and friends I interact with everyday. I really appreciate your passion for your convictions though we may differ. However, if would be nice if you toned down your affection of Mr. Carvin. Just a bit over the top. Last word is yours. Peace, Jeff Meyer Tuckahoe, NY

Jeff, look up Joe Carvin in the databases of New York Times and the Wall Street Journal and you'll understand why we are so passionate about him. Joe is the ONLY Town Supervisor in Westchester who is actively campaigning to ELIMINATE HIS OWN JOB AND THE RYE TOWN GOVERNMENT in order to wipe out a layer of government and save taxpayer dollars. Right now the Town is undergoing a bipartisan study (conducted by a non profit from Rochester, and paid for by the State, two Villages, and the Town) to see what makes the most economic sense: eliminating the Town or weighing in with a plethora of shared services amongst the Town's Village governments, the Town, and its school districts. Can you find another governmental entity within a reasonable drive from Tuckahoe even thinking that way? Thanks for the last word.

Jeff, it is time that the public employee unions contracts come in line with reality. There was a time that there benefits were less than the private sector only because of job security. The public sector has grown 20% over the last 3 years. The private sector has shrunk.
The private sector pays into its pensions and health care plans. What is the problem with the UNIONS also sharing some of the countries financial burdens? I keep hearing the president saying we all should be sharing the discomfort and having a level playing field. I guess that doesn't apply to the public service unions.

Francis, your points have validity. However, I believe that public employee unions have"come in line with reality" ( Though I wouldn't use that phrase). Throughout our country public employees have lost jobs by the thousands. Health care contributions and pension contributions are the norm for the overwhelming majority of public employees in our region. To say that public employees have not compromised or negotiated in good faith is not accurate. JM Tuckahoe

Jeff, you overlook the historical elements in this matter. There was a time when pubic sector wages and salaries were less than attracting ... and that was somewhat enhanced by a better benefit package and job security. It was a trade-off many were willing to make.
However, over the last decade and a half most public sector employees ... from teachers to village workers of all sorts ... have seen their wage/salary packages escalate to a point that they equal or surpass the private sector. AND their benefit packages continue to be a sort of 'third rail" issue. They will not move to adjust the benefit packages (pension/health/sick leave/vacation/security/etc.). To many. it appears to being a "cake and eat it, too" position.
Times have changed and so have realities. Time for everyone to catch up.

Average public sector salaries AND pensions have outstripped private sector average salaries for years now. There is no reason these jobs should come with a pension, period. Think we can't fill these well-vacationed, good-hours, local- commuting jobs with qualified people if we dont pay pensions? Think again!! Read this NYTimes article and feel your blood starting to boil - all paid for at the expense of NYS taxpayers:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/business/economy/21pension.html?pagewanted=all

BG7: Is it really the fault of unions for the grievances you have mentioned? Is it the public sector unions that caused " the great recession" or was it reckless risk taking on part of corporate banking? Isn't every public employee contract ratified by elected officials from the municipality in question? The pensions you refer too are a contractual obligations on the part of the municipalities. To just not fund them is not legal. Perhaps I am naive, but I wish all jobs came with good wages, health care, vacations, and job protection. I believe these types of jobs are called union jobs. Jeff Meyer Tuckahoe, NY

Jeff, OK, I think everyone in this forum understands that you are an ardent supporter of PUBLIC employee unions. (I haven't seen anything you've posted about the UAW or any airline unions or any other private-industry unions.) Why don't you tell all of us in this forum what you do for a living? And who signs your paychecks if you are not an independent entrepreneur or self-employed? At the least you owe this explanation to BG7 and Aiden. A "Jeff Meyer" Google search shows only pro-public union postings on various Westchester web sites.

Dick: Am I really worthy of a google search? Every time I post a comment on any publication I leave my real name and hometown. If it will help you sleep better at night I will gladly answer your questions. It is not exactly a secret that I am a retired police officer with the Town of Eastchester which I served for 21 years. I proudly served as union president for 11 years. My retirement pension is my sole source of income. As far as my current activities it better if you ask people who know me. They can tell you what I do. I am a homeowner and a taxpayer. I have been married to the same beautiful lady for 25 years and we have 4 wonderful children and a adorable grandson. I am 47 years old and I proudly bleed union.. I believe that unions are the best remedy that our societies offer to ensure quality jobs for the working class citizens. I will be glad to buy you a cup of coffee if our paths collide. Jeff Meyer Tuckahoe, NY

Jeff is also an ardent supporter of the truth and justice.

You got my vote Jeff

Isn't every public employee contract ratified by elected officials from the municipality in question? The pensions you refer too are a contractual obligations on the part of the municipalities.

I completely agree Jeff. I don't understand why people always trash unions for simply negotiating good contracts for unions. Jealous, envy, just don't think working people are entitled to a good wage? As you correctly point out, it takes two to have a contract.

SRT, that IS the problem. These politicians have been buying the votes of these union members for years with great contracts! Now the chickens have come home to roost.

Bob the arbitrators are supposed to base their decisions on the municipalities ability to pay, what other Rye employees receive and what other similar and nearby town employees get.

The City of Rye can cry the "we are broke" blues all they want. The arbitrator usually sees through these crocodile tears.

The City of Rye can say they have no money for raises. Everyone knows this is an untruth. Rye had money to buy CVS for $6,000,000, the meeting house for $1,500,000, a 20% or so raise for Pickup a couple years ago and an endless stream of money for in house and outside lawyers.

Pickup and French need to get Rye's own out of control management in order before trying to screw over the employees of Rye.

Isn't the reason that public unions have binding arbitration because they are not allowed to strike? In fact they have to go to arbitration if contract negotiations reach and impasse. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff.

SRT: You are certainly correct. I know that binding arbitration was granted to police officers and firefighters through the Taylor Law. Since these professions can not strike due to the potential hazards to the public, they were granted binding arbitration. If binding arbitration is eliminated, police officers and firefighters would be at the mercy of management in terms of contract negotiations with absolutely no recourse. Which I am sure some people would prefer. Jeff Meyer Tuckahoe, NY

Jeff, you are age 47 and retired? On a taxpayer paid pension? Hey, even the French have now realized that this is a disaster for society. And the Greeks? Even the Athens rioters have figured this out. The Euro zone is in crisis because of profligate state spending and outrageous pensions and early retirements. We're next. If we have more "union bleeders" who want to retire in their 40's, and have the public permission to do so, we are surely headed for disaster as a society as well. So, sorry, this ex G.I. who turned down unemployment insurance upon being mustered out because I was embarrassed to take it, and worked long private sector hours for decades to support my family, cannot conceive of any able bodied citizen retired at 47..unless they are retired on their own nickle..in which case they can do anything they please. But to ask taxpayers to support that lifestyle? There's a word for that.

Dick,

In your years in the private sector I am sure you dealt with contracts. Isn't what Jeff had a contract with his employer, in this case a governmental organization? Are you saying now that Jeff delivered on his part of the contract, that his employer should say, "you remember that pension we agreed to pay you? Oh, sorry, we were just kidding " Is that how contracts are honored in the private sector?

Dick, I will only respond to you because we are between football games. You asked me some questions and I provided you an honest answer. I figured it would be quicker then you doing another google search on me. You sound quite bitter. Police Officers and Firefighters in NYS are eligible for a 20 year retirement. Common knowledge. Part of a Police Officers of Firefighters contract calls for the local municipality to contribute to the NYS Pension System every year on their behalf. I worked for every dime or nickel that I receive. You sound very jealous. I am sorry that is the case. Perhaps you should have taken one of the exams as a young man since it strikes such a raw nerve with you. Dick, you can always call me at 914 500 7180 and explain to me personally how you believe retired police officers and firefighters are free loaders when they retire as per when their contractual obligation allows them too. However, not tonight. Let me enjoy some football with my family please. Jeff Meyer Tuckahoe, NY

Jeff. Accusing anyone as being bitter or jealous who finds retiring at 47 (or earlier) from the public payroll horrendous is a pretty phony ploy. How about saying people like me are being realistic about what the property tax and income tax paying residents of a bankrupt country can afford. As the private sector can’t afford salaried employees retiring at age 47 (or earlier), and as the political class realizes that to sustain Social Security the retirement age will probably have to rise to 67 and then 70, the American taxpayer (and the public employees) are going to have to get used to the fact that public employee retirement at 47, or earlier, regardless of what you do for taxpayers, is just plain unrealistic. And the contracts need to be renegotiated or changed, just as bankrupt companies change their labor contracts when there’s nothing left in the till. Perhaps police officers and firemen who want to quit after 20 years should have to wait until 65 to start receiving their pension. Then you could be productive citizens for another 35 years or so in another profession instead of spending your time campaigning for unsustainable retirement benefits. Either way, the gravy train you are riding is bound to end.

"Either way, the gravy train you are riding is bound to end." Yes. What was once necessary is no longer.

Jeff, I'll be straight with you. No contract should ever be broken. Those who have signed on to public sector employment did so with the understanding of the entire package ... salaries thru pension. That should be honored. But it is time to restructure that situation immediately ... as the "old" premises are no longer valid (see my earlier post).
What are the alternatives? There are many possibilities. And, it may even be possible to move some ... not all ... of the existing workforce into a new structure. But most believe that the days of a "20 and Out" or a pension at 55 is no longer financially feasible. The burden on taxpayers is now too great ... and it leaves no reasonable budgetary wiggle room.
You are entitled to your situation. A deal is a deal. Had the economy not gone south so swiftly this issue might not have been spotlighted for some time. Now it's all in the light of day ... and, unfortunately, the excesses of the system (even if only revealed by a few) are fair game discussion points. You might be reticent to acknowledge that for a number of reasons ... but it seems most reasonable to a lot of folks.
I also don't think it's a genuine case of jealousy or greed on their part either. I think that for most it's an honest examination of fairness for the new reality.
I wish union leaders in many public sector fields would give this reality a nod ... and be a positive force in the restructuring ... lest they run the risk of having something harsher imposed.

Anyone thought about - going forward - eliminating NYS pensions; joining Social Security; and setting up the equivalent of a 401k for public employees with, say, a 3% contribution match from the tax payers? That would certainly put public service employees on an even keel with tax payers. It would also get NYS gov't out of the investment mangement - a place in which they have no demonstrated expertise, but some history of corrupt practices.

Aiden and Bob, thanks, you've said it all. And Jeff, the public is catching on to the mind bending deals public employee unions have pulled off over the years. The outrage is building. You and the politicians will see an army of people like Aiden, Bob, and me in the public arena. And yes, we'll be ending the gravy train.

Jeff ... this sums up things perfectly ... from the taxpayer POV.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/public-retirement-ages-come-under-170328247.html

Aidan, Bob and Dick, thank you. Your points are well taken, even though I disagree with the majority of them. Jeff Meyer Tuckahoe, NY

Jeff, Aiden, Bob: Please click on this link to CNBC and the story from the Associated Press headlined: "Public Retirement Ages Come Under Greater Greater Scrutiny:"

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45625234

The debate we are having here on Patch is part of a national re-examination of the kind of Public Pension retirement deal that allowed Jeff to step out of the work force in his 40's.

To quote one paragraph of the AP story:

"With Americans increasingly likely to live well into their 80s, critics question whether paying lifetime pensions to retirees from age 55 or 60 is financially sustainable. An Associated Press survey earlier this year found the 50 states have a combined $690 billion in unfunded pension liabilities and $418 billion in retiree health care obligations. "

It is those "unfunded pension liabilities" that are at the heart of this dialogue. Property owning taxpayers (i.e. Westchester County) and the income tax paying residents of the states themselves can't afford them.

So those "unbreakable contracts" will be broken. Just wait.

Dick, I'd already posted this.

Dick, I wish I shared your optimism about union contracts being broken. It won't happen without more pressure from the public. We need to get a referendum on the ballot in 2012 giving the County and local governments permission from voters to refuse to negotiate with public employee unions, like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers.There are enough unemployed to replace every current government worker, and it's time we unemployed the ungrateful and empowered those who believe in a fair system. Look what happened with the County budget.Every Legislator who will be up for election next time caved. They added back all non-attrition jobs, and borrowed $30 million to pay for pensions, to pretend to deliver no tax increase. We are on a slippery slope toward becoming Greece (pun intended). Let lazy lottery winners like Jeff, who live off the hard work of others, go to the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp for their monthly stipend. It's an insult to all of us who work hard (many in equally if not more dangerous and more physically demanding jobs than public employees, even emergency responders) to make us support an easy life for people like Jeff while we toil with no retirement plan, no 401k, nothing but a gun to our heads paying into a Social Security system that politicians moved to the General Fund and then raided out of their own lack of courage and conviction to be sensible. Without a referendum, we will have to wait for an exogenous shock before people wake up.

Empty Suit, How do you know if I have an easy life? Do you know me? Or like Dick do you just assume to know all. Public employees earn and deserve every dollar they work for. Just because you, Dick and others crawl to management is no reason to despise unions. You should join or organize one since you are so.... envious of unionized workers. You are such a small, jealous male/female that I actually feel sorry for you. You truly are a empty suit. You speak very accurately of yourself. Jeff Meyer Tuckahoe, NY

Jeff, during his high school years my youngest son took a summer job as a janitor's assistant in the White Plains schools. After about a week he told me that his boss, "the senior janitor," chewed him out for working too hard - that it was absolutely necessary to do as little work as possible to justify his position. My son was shocked. It ran against his conscience, his sense of pride, his honor. It was the last union protected job he held. He is now happily working as an exec with one of the nation's leading software companies. As a member of two unions (AFTRA, the WGA), I understand where unions can be helpful in a competitive private sector world. But public unions, whose members work in a world of non-competitive governments controlled by politicians and supported by often unwilling but helpless taxpayers, are a different ballgame altogether. Public unions are now a threat to America's economy and future, and when presented with the facts behind this threat (note the AP story), you are now resorting to ugly language and baseless charges. Your fellow public union members may rally to your defense, but that will be it. You are losing the battle for public opinion even while you are destroying the the savings and income of the tax paying public. The public union gravy train must and will come to an end, but the ongoing slow train wreck, as you so well demonstrate, will be ugly.

You said it yourself, Jeff. "I am 47 years old and I proudly bleed union." You are retired at 47 and I and every other honest person in NY pays you a pension for no good reason. I'm not envious of you. I pity you. Everyone I deal with has more self-respect than you. No one I knows would demand taxpayers pay them to do nothing at 47. You are small and petty and probably uneducated. It explains why you are afraid to make a living and instead expect others to pay for your life. Also, you are incapable of understanding "irony". You, like the Occupiers, think people who pay taxes and work hard are "empty suits". I wear that as a badge of honor. I am honest. I work hard. I pay way too much tax. I make your life possible. Go ahead and insult me. You will encourage others like me - the unappreciated millions who pay public workers salaries- - to rise up and put an end to the corruption from which you profit. Justice is not envy. Justice is justice. And your day is coming...

Dick, "ugly language ad baseless charges"? Take the plank out of your own eye. You have no problem dishing it out but obviously your feelings get hurt very easily. What is your issue with me? Is it hate? Is it jealously? Am I your poster child for what is wrong with the world? Are you frustrated with your own life? Maybe you should spend more time focused on yourself rather then me. If there is something you wish to discuss with me or tell me then you can call me. Your OBSESSION with me, my pension and public employees is bordering on weird. Your interests in my personal life and your "Jeff Meyer google searches" are rather strange. If I didn't know better I would think you are developintuckahoe, NYg a "man crush". Stop hiding behind your computer.. Move on Dick. Jeff Meyer

Aw....Empty Suit, did I hurt your feelings? I'm sorry. Maybe if you did something to change your pathetic work situation you wouldn't be so miserable. Stop whining and do something about it. Unionized workers don't have the problems that you and Dick constantly WHINE about because we learned to stand up for what matters. Unions, public and non public have built the middle class. You will not destroy what has been built. Your efforts will be futile. BTW, you have a lot to say for a anonymous guy. It's sad that you let an "uneducated" and "pathetic" person like myself get under your skin. What does say about you? 914 500 7180. If ever you wish to come out of hiding and wish to act on your BRAVE words that's where you can reach me. Jeff Meyer Tuckahoe, NY

Jeff, you maybe right or not on the unions building the middle class. None the less it is those "generous" benefits that are now coming home to roost. We can't, the taxpayer, afford them anymore. The retirement age of non-emergancy workers has to change. it is ok to get a pension after 20 years of service for those, but they will have to wait till they are either 55 or 65 to start collecting it. Some agencies have already started this with new hires. These changes will have to be made or you will find that many municipality's will be going bankrupt because they can't pay the pension and medical plans of these retires. Some towns already have gone under.

Francis, a new tier has already been created for NYS Police Officers and Firefighters. You now have to work 22 years to retire and receive a 50% service pension. This was put into law about 2 years ago. This is applicable to all NYS Officers (outside NYC). There is much talk of creating another tier which would put an age requirement as part of retirement for police and firefighters. This very well may happen very soon for new hirings. JM Tuckahoe, NY

I do not begrudge Jeff's situation at all. How can any of us fault a man who, at an early age, planned his life in a responsible fashion? He, like many public employees, made a decision based on factors suitable to him. It's not as though Jeff was surreptitious or changing the goal posts. He abided by the rules. If any of us have issues with those rules then we should demand a re-examination. But to threaten to abrogate contractual promises with retirees is the height of unfairness. Remember that these provisions were approved by our legislators ... past & present. And they were n that power position because we placed them there. We allowed all of this to come about.
Jeff is also right ... there was little empathy not long ago for those who chose the career paths of firefighters, police officers, teachers and such. Everyone knew that their earning potential had limits ... and many also knew at the time that they were modestly paid. Yes, times changed and salaries shot up ... but no one thought to reconfigure the package when that happened. Who's fault is that? Not Jeff's ... or any other public employee. It was our fault for not demanding reasonable change and electing people to make those reasonable changes.

Now we can go about that mission ... carefully. Folks like Jeff are our neighbors. They didn't scam anyone at all. They pursued their version of a dream ... and others pursued different dreams. Not all dreams have the desired outcomes. This bleak economy has unnerved lots of us ... and derailed our dreams. Scorching others for their good fortune ... and planning ... borders on envy and jealousy. We're better than that. I hope.
Now, let's go about making it all right and proper ... and not pit ourselves against each other. That is NOT us. I hope.
Aidan

Yeah. But that's our job, too.

Aidan, You can't be serious. "planned his life in a responsible fashion"??? What a joke. Jeff saw a corrupt system and sought to profit from it. He's no different than a Wall Street banker who expects the taxpayer to bail him out. He just carried a gun for a few years. Would you call all the profiteers from the Wall Street Bailout responsible neighbors? I think not. In a just world, where neighbors look out for each other, none demands special treatment, no group of persons asks taxpayers to pay them salary for more years out of work than they work. That's Jeff story. He's no hero. Public employees have had it too good for too long. It's always been an unjust corrupt system. Only now, as we become more and more like Greece, where we pay people like Jeff not to work and instead badmouth the people who pay him, the corrupt system is unsustainable. Change is a comin'.

30 years ago avg salary was 20-40k for police fire. Pension was 1/2. All was good. Now salary's are 80-120k with pension based off last 3 years. Overtime gets padded & all of a sudden it's a disability so now it's 3/4 salary. One county cop has a pension over 200k a year. That's the problem. Many teachers over 100k pensions. I don't begrudge them. It's the contract they had.
The problem is now going to be in 1-2 years when the cost of some of these pension exceed what the municipality's now collect in total taxes.
What happens next is Towns & Village's either going bankrupt or disbanding. County or State Police, no garbage collection. Who knows about fire. It's all about the numbers & they are no longer there. It's gonna get ugly......

The fact that your buddy down the street is 52 and is running landscape business after going out on 3/4 dissability pay is a joke at a party when times r good. Now you lost your job and can't afford your house and taxes. Not so funny anymore. That is America 2011 in a nutshell.

Aidan, I appreciate your balanced perspective. Though you and I may disagree on certain policies, I believe at the end of the day we realize that opinions will differ and so be it. The obsession that some have with my life, my pension and so on reflects more upon them then it does me. The over the top comments made regarding the NYS Pension System speak for them self. My only regret is that I actually stated my age and my retirement. I did so only because I thought I was asked an honest question by an honest person. I have NEVER claimed to be a hero or anyone special like some posts state. Just an average guy with a family, a house and a beagle. I have always said that if the current laws bothers the citizens of our State then change them. Very simple. If any of my detractors or stalkers wish to contact me they have my phone number. I am sure that is too much to ask for. Anonymous criticism always seems to bring about courage. Peace, JM

The December 10-16 issue of The Economist has a story on the financial collapse of Detroit which is a must read for Jeff Meyer and other public union advocates. America's fiscal future is on display in Detroit, and it's frightening. To quote:

"As well as wage cuts and 1,000 lay-offs, the mayor needs big concessions from the unions, ranging from pensions and health-care reform to changes in restrictive work rules. ... The unions may realise that the game is up. One representative—among the 45 with whom the city must negotiate—says his members feel up against a wall."

Being "up against the wall" is a feeling that taxpayers in this area already have - witness the defeat of schools bonds in Rye and Cortlandt/Peekskill.

Jeff's public union friends may be also "up against the wall" here sooner than anyone can imagine.

Jeff, Westchester property owning taxpayers are already up against the wall - hence my pointing out the unprecedented defeat of school bond referendums. Public employees and their unions are going to be joining that list - Detroit is a bellwether of that. I am pointing out the obvious - I take no pleasure doing so, but it seems to be necessary to do it for those who are or wish to be oblivious to reality.

Jeff, I don't think that is what he means. He is pointing out the reality of the situation. Even someone that does not have an MBA can see this. Just look at your tax bill. Detroit is not the only city or municipality in this financial condition.

I don't want to see you up against a wall, Jeff. I want you to get a job, and not take a fixed pension from the rest of us. Children have an innate sense of justice. They know what's fair and unfair. My kids can sense the injustice of the current system. The public employee pension system is unjust. I have been an outspoken advocate against it for years, so Aidan is wrong to say I've been asleep. It's just that people like him and you hold a gun to politicans' heads and have extracted unreasonable demands. Look at the LIRR conductors. They get extra pay when it rains. How irrational is that. Unions were a good idea when May Day took place in the 19th Century. Now, they are just highly paid lobbies for the lazy who think they are entitled to living off the hard work of others. The system is unsustainable. When disaster hits Europe, perhaps the union guard in the US will wake up and smell the coffee. More likely, they'll whine that they are entitled.

Police and fire pay and benefits are especially out of line because their lobbying in Albany and political activism at the local level has been successful. They played the game and they got what they wanted while the citizenry slept. The 20-year rule for retirement and insurance eligibility is by state statute, not by negotiations. Binding arbitration that largely ignores both the ability to pay and private sector compensation has led to astronomical pay and benefits and lax rules for disability benefits. This has all come about because of superior lobbying and politicking by the police and fire unions, not from some mysterious combination of market forces. Public employees didn't hit the jackpot by luck, but by the combination of smart work in Albany and lazy, uninformed voters around the state. A contract is a contract, but there is nothing holy about a contract where the public is unfairly burdened by rules written in Albany by the union lobbyists.

Well said Nancy. If you are correct that the 20-year rule is a creature of NY legislators, then that is easier to change with elected officials than through negotiations with the unions. Most taxpayers get upset when they read about rampant abuse by public employee union folk who abuse the system out of sheer greed. Many retire young on trumped up disability claims, then laugh about it with each other while waiting in line to pay off doctors to rubber stamp their fraud. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/10/28/nyregion/28lirr-complaint-doc.html

There is a public policy exception to almost every law ever written. When taxpayers wake up and decide it's contrary to public policy to create a favored class of people -- for example, public employees who are given benefits that far exceed the value they deliver -- this scandal will end. I applaud Dick Hubert for sticking his neck out. If he lived in Peekskill, he'd have to fear retribution from the reigning political thugs who share Jeff's vision of the world.

Mr. Public, the 20 year rule has already changed. It is now 22 years. The NYS Legislator is possibly going to amend it again. I hope not. Your view of unions biased and distorted. Since I have no idea who you are, I won't begin to speculate. It could be a honest public policy disagreement. It could be jealousy or envy. Who knows, perhaps you failed the police and firefighter exam as a young person. Buffs are always the strongest critics. You deserve to be stereotyped because of the way you describe others. You ignorant stereotyping puts you in sad company with the Empty One and Dick. You should get together and have lunch with the Empty One and Dick. You can have a whine fest and share your miseries and failures together. JM Tuckahoe, NY

You are so wrong it's sad, Jeff. When I was a young boy, working my way through college, I loaded trucks. I was forced to join the Teamsters. They took 1 month of my pay to join, then one paycheck a month. It was not voluntary. What did they do for me? The old guys refused to work. One brought his Winnebago to work each day, and he and the old guys would play cards in the parking lot during the entire 12 hour shift while we young guys worked. Your experience is obviously different or you are able to excuse this behavior while I won't. I now have a job that you would envy, and obviously lack the intelligence for. Unlike you, I hate wasting money. I hate it when government wastes money. I hate it when leeches try to game the system. There are too many people who are truly poor and powerless in this world who need our help. When leeches surface and sap resources that could be better spent on educating and clothing and healing the poor, I get mad. So go ahead, Scrooge Jeff. Tell all the truly needy in the world that you deserve more than they do. Or if you have any self respect, get a real job.

Aw.... John, dry your eyes. I don't envy anyone. Especially the likes of someone as bitter and jealous as you. I am thankful and blessed for everything I have. You know nothing about me yet you judge me. You talk about the helping the poor yet your venom against your fellow man contradicts all you say. Your stereotyping of people is sickening. I can see why you post with a phony nickname like John Q. Public. Coming out of the shadows would only humiliate you and your family. JM Tuckahoe, NY

You're a typical thug, Jeff. Ideas are more important than personality. In the event you've been living under a rock for the past 3 decades, Dems insist on personalizing politics rather than discussing ideas, because they can't win the argument. You are no different. Shakespeare wrote "How sharper than a serpent's tooth to have a thankless child." Same applies to leeches like you. You posts are the strongest argument to end public employee pensions. If taxpayers knew how ungrateful you are, they'd pull all pensions in a heartbeat. Thanks for helping the cause!

John, Your comments are as strange as it gets. Do we know one another? We must because you know my thoughts, motives, and attitude. Whatever cause you are involved with I will stay far away from. It is most likely a cause grounded in hate, stereotyping, bitterness, jealousy and arrogance. Enjoy your cause. Let me enjoy my family, my endeavors and my life. Fair enough? JM Tuckahoe

I believe in America, I believe in personal responsibility, I believe in taking care of yourself and your family by your own hard work and labor. I understand Jeff that you do not share these values. I don't stereotype. I respond only to what you write. We should all be responsible for our financial futures. We should not depend on taxpayers and hide behind an alleged "contract" of dubious value negotiated through bad means. Go ahead. Be who you want to be and stay far away from rational thinking people who think government is spending its way into oblivion. Otherwise your life would be uncomfortable, especially if you had to confront the reality that hard working people face every day. You spout bad words like envy jealousy. You use these words because you know you are being unjustly compensated by taxpayers. I know many public servants who don't share your unabashed sense of entitlement. Enjoy your family, but teach your kids to live a more respectable life.

John, such arrogance. You even know if my life is comfortable or uncomfortable.Do you give your family as much attention as you give me. To state that one is unjustly compensated by taxpayers after serving as a police officer for 21 years is wrong on the facts and just plain bizarre. Currently there are thousands upon thousands NYS police officers and firefighters in NYS who retired after 20 years or prior to making their 20 from being disabled. Is it actually your opinion that police officers and firefighters don't work hard and are ripping off the system. How can you spout such stupidity. These laws that govern pensions are legal. They were ratified by the NYS Legislative. Enacted into law. Every municipal contract is ratified by the elected officials of each jurisdiction in question. I am entitled to nothing except what my union contract provides for. My pension is a legal contract. Binding and ratified through the collective bargaining process. Nothing was ever done secretly in regards to NYS pensions unless you have been sleeping for 40 years. A contract is never hidden. Any resident can FOIL a copy of a municipal/union agreement. Read the facts, deal with your issues and inform yourself and get a grip. JM Tuckahoe

We are on track to break the Patch record for most story comments! And Jeff Meyer, this is for you. If you get anything out of my posts and the others, it should be that you should NOT count on getting that incredible "20 years and you're out" pension the rest of your working life. The public taxpayer bank really is broken, as those municipal workers in Detroit will be the first to testify. My recommendation: while you are still young and apparently healthy, get a private sector job, and start putting your earnings in a savings account - either insured by the FDIC, or more adventurously, if you really think the municipal pot will never collapse, maybe even in selected municipal bonds. AND SAVE SAVE SAVE. You'll need a fallback position when the municipal pension bubble bursts and you are suddenly in financial trouble.

Dick, this is for you. I would prefer no advice from you. I receive nothing from your posts except arrogance and an elitist mentality. You would love nothing more then for the NYS Pension System to go bust. You would enjoy the fact that union employees and their families would have their lives ruined. I do have fall back positions. I have been a saver my whole life. You have a tendency of stating things that you presume I have said. Did I ever say the "municipal pot" would never collapse? Maybe it could. However, Mr. Dinapoli states that it is well funded and one of the most solvent pension funds in the nation. That must disappoint you. I have always provided for my family and always will. I have saved well and live simply. My ultimate faith and trust is in God. I have no control with the markets or pension bubbles. Advice is best received when it is solicited. JM Tuckahoe

Jeff, then good luck to you. I hope your faith in Democratic Comptroller Tom DiNapoli's investment prowess does not meet the same fate as those who invested in former New Jersey Democratic Governor and Senator Jon Corzine's investment prowess at MF Global. One word of unsolicited advice: never put all your savings eggs in one investment basket, especially one run by a politician.

Dick, I already told you my faith is in God. I never stated I placed my faith in Mr. DiNapoli. Never the less, good luck to you too. JM Tuckahoe, NY

Nancy: If you don't agree with the system then change it. Very simple. You ask the question of how contracts became so favorable. What you consider favorable public employees consider fair. Also, when the economy was robust did people view civil service jobs as favorably as they do now? Did said jobs and contracts receive such scrutiny, I say certainly not. I get your point that you are not satisfied with lobbying in Albany. However, isn't that the process afforded to all groups and citizens? Do you really expect public employees and pro labor organizations to use the LEGAL process and endorse candidates that work against their interests? Would you, Dick. Q. or Empty do such a thing. Unions, both public and private have already adjusted to the economic climate. I would say that no raises, higher health care premiums and layoffs are a adjustment. However, to call the participation of labor unions in the political process a "rip off" is simply wrong on fact and reality. When you vote who's interests do you consider, yours or mine. Do you really expect pro labor individuals to vote what is against their well being. Enough said. The system is what it is. If you don't like it then work to change it. "We are all part of the same hypocrisy Senator"MC. JM Tuckahoe, NY

I get it that what the PBA does, and does very well, is work for the benefit of its members, and that includes lots of work at the local and state level to elect politicians who will serve the interests of its members. I get it that we live in a democracy and that interest groups have gained inordinate power in Albany and that it is up to informed citizens to change the balance of power. The system is what it is, but that doesn't make it fair or balanced for the average citizen. I do object to the inordinate compensation costs imposed on taxpayers under this system of governance, and to the smug argument that police officers and firefighters deserve or have earned their inordinate pay and benefits because of their hard work. The hardest work they have done is to buy state and local politicians, of both Democratic and Republican persuasions, to do their bidding, regardless of the impact on the rest of the community. Buy them not with cash but with well organized campaign support. Yes, the citizenry has been napping for a very long time, and quite frankly the citizenry might not wake up and organize in time to avert the house of cards falling in on all of us.

Nancy, you present a strong case. However, to state that the hardest thing that police officers and firefighters do is to buy state and local politicians is a disgrace. Especially during this week like this with such tragic losses. Such a comment on your part indicate that you are either very ignorant or very bitter. Since I don't know you or wish to know you I will let you fill in the blank. JM Tuckahoe, NY

I'm not arguing that police officers and firefighters don't work hard and don't have dangerous jobs. I very much respect and appreciate their work. But their hard on the job does not explain their rich contracts, it is the hard work they and their union representatives do off the job that explains the exorbitant salaries and benefits. What's disgraceful is rationalizing these contracts as fair and square deals with the public. They're not. They are the product of a broken system in which special interest groups have taken advantage of the public.

Nancy, what rich contracts. Can you compare the teachers contracts with them? The teachers are ripping off the public. Just look at the results of their work. Students who can't read or write. We are 17th in the world ranking when it comes to education. What are these teachers actually doing. I see the police arresting criminals and the fire fighters putting out fires. What are the teachers doing? If anyone has a "rich" contract, it is them.

Francis, teachers cannot retire at 40 and be on the public dole for 50 years like cops. You can't hold teachers responsible for their efforts to redress what parents fail to do. The responsibility for education falls on parents' shoulders and you can't blame teachers for parents who don't do their part to help their own kids. The 20 and out pension system for cops is not fair. The elected officials who delivered these contractual terms are cowards. If Jeff believes what he says -- he profited from a corrupt system but he claims he wasn't part of the corruption -- I hope he also says that bailing out the banks and the government encouraging moral hazard (bet $1 Jeff doesn't know the concept) is okay for the same reason his "contract" is okay. It's very significant that Jeff is the only one defending his side. Most people who know they unjustly profit off of others' hard work have the sense to keep their mouths shut. I thank Jeff in advance for his response. It will only help recruit more people to put an end to the corrupt system we live under. Thanks Jeff. You are the best!

Francis, since you insist on comparing police/fire with teachers, let's go to the numbers:
The average pension for the sixteen Yonkers police and firefighters who retired in 2010 was $120,000. The typical (e.g. median) retiree was eligible for a pension benefit of $124,000 after 31 years of service; if their median age at hire was 24, then they were 55 years old at retirement . Pension, not pay. In 2009, the average pension for the 52 Yonkers uniformed employees who retired that year was $95,000. The median pension was $99,000 for 23 years of service and retirement age was 47 (assuming same age at hire of 24).
In 2010, 64 Yonkers teachers retired with an average pension of $85,000; the median was a pension of $94,000 and 36 years of service. Assuming a typical hire age of 24, the typical retirement age was 60.
In other words, in Yonkers uniformed employees retire with higher pensions and many fewer years of service as compared to teachers. Of course, this also means that taxpayers are on the hook to pay medical insurance for these retirees and their families for that many more years.
By my calculation, the typical W-2 earnings prior to retirement was $201,000 and $198,000 for the 2010 and 2009 uniformed retirees, respectively, and $150,000 for the teacher retirees. Francis, I hope that helps to explain what I mean by "rich" contracts.

By the way, Francis, did you see the article in the Journal News about the 250-pound White Plains police officer with a female assistant chief who allegedly pushed a chair into his chair, causing him to "bump into the computer in front of [him]", and his back "to tighten".
Three hours later he was taken to the emergency room.
He's been on disability since mid-September and reports that he is "working diligently with my doctors to recover from my injuries". Oh, he's also planning to sue White Plains for damages. That's rich!
Francis, what's your guess, will he settle the lawsuit for a non-NY State taxable disability pension at 75% of pay plus lifetime health insurance or will he also require monetary damages for his physical and mental pain and suffering?